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Assassin 52
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Jean-Christophe
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhparker wrote:
I am simply concerned that early posting of JSudoku logs may discourage other members of the team from participating in a tag solution.


Not with such a complicated log !

BTW what does tag means ?
Totally Addicted Groupies
Tactical Assault Group
Talented And Gifted
Transcendental Argument for the existence of God
Target Adaptive Guidance
Test Aerosol Generator
Laughing
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Jean-Christophe
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found some easier & earlier step in place of step 23:

After step 3a:
3b. R1C125 = HT {789} @ R1
3c. 45 on R1 (using R1C125 = {789} = 24) -> R2C8 = 1
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sudokuEd
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean-Christophe wrote:
BTW what does tag means ?
Your first three are very close. Very Happy

We must have the same dictionary bookmarked. Some more

TAG -Technical AdHoc Group

TAG -The Assassin(ation) Game

TAG -Tight Aggressive Geeks
(Hope Ruud doesn't agree with this one Wink )

TAG -Trusted Agent Group

Still trying to catch up to the rest of you after Hevvie - so have to add this one.
TAG -Time Aggressive Gargantuans

The original idea for tag Killer was - the 'tag' being like in 'tag-team' wrestling - one person starts, then another takes over.

Feel very nostalgic thinking about the tag solutions we've had. They are emotional roller-coasters for me - feel so much affection for each brave soul who joins in. colors Thanks to each of you.

Cheers
Ed
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sudokuEd
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,

re Mike and Jean-Christophe about solver logs.

Mike's feelings about this are stronger than mine. But I know exactly where you're coming from Mike - I love the human solver flavour of this forum, just look at how many mistakes we have all made! And we care! I would much rather ask a human solver for help than get a soft-ware hint.

True, complicated solver logs posted at the beginner might scare some away - though if they scare that easily they must not have browsed any of the past tag team solutions! Thankfully Andrew wasn't scared away by SumoCue's log in the first tag puzzle.

Thanks Jean-Christophe for putting the log into TT. It did leave me the choice.

From our early experience with tag solutions, we quickly gave up using SumoCue except to give us a hint when we got stuck. Like Mike, I still prefer to use soft solvers that way.

The other valuable contribution of soft logs, again as Mike says, is to have a log at the end. rcbroughton has added his (unedited) solver's output at the end of a tag solution. I liked that - and learned a lot from it.

This has been a very difficult post to write. Hope it is useful.

Cheers
Ed
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mhparker
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,

Thought I'd add a few more comments on the subject of JSudoku...

Jean-Christophe wrote:
OK I won't publish logs anymore.

I think you misunderstood me there. I've got nothing against the posting of JSudoku logs in general, especially in this very interesting case where the log relates to a version that has not been released yet, giving us a fascinating insight as to what we can soon expect.

It was only the timing of the post that irritated me. It would have been better to have waited a couple of days to see how far we could get manually first.

I wrote:
I am simply concerned that early posting of JSudoku logs may discourage other members of the team from participating in a tag solution.

Jean-Christophe wrote:
Not with such a complicated log !

You can say that again! After 3 hours of painstaking analysis of the log study, I'm still not quite through yet!

Just to give anybody who hasn't yet battled with the log an idea of how complicated it gets, here's an example to whet your appetite (or scare you off, as the case may be! pale):

Code:
.-----------------------.-----------------------.-----------.-----------------------.-----------------------.
|(18)                   |(7)                    |(23)       |(7)                    |(8)                    |
| 789         789       | 156         126       | 89        | 145         236       | 2345        2345      |
:-----------.           :-----------------------:           :-----------------------:           .-----------:
|(18)       |           |(10)                   |           |(13)                   |           |(26)       |
| 234569    | 23        | 348         267       | 23456789  | 458         589       | 1         | 2456789   |
|           '-----------'-----------.-----------:           :-----------.-----------'-----------'           |
|                                   |(17)       |           |(11)       |                                   |
| 1234569     12345689    45689     | 3456789   | 23456789  | 12345678  | 246789      2456789     2456789   |
:-----------.-----------.-----------'           |           |           '-----------.-----------.-----------:
|(12)       |(21)       |                       |           |                       |(20)       |(12)       |
| 1234567   | 456789    | 12345       3456789   | 23456789  | 2345678     12345678  | 3456789   | 123456789 |
|           |           :-----------------------'-----------'-----------------------:           |           |
|           |           |(23)                                                       |           |           |
| 234567    | 456789    | 6789        6789        1           2345        2345      | 3456789   | 23456789  |
|           |           :-----------------------.-----------.-----------------------:           |           |
|           |           |(12)                   |(21)       |(18)                   |           |           |
| 1234567   | 456789    | 1234        345678    | 23456789  | 23456789    123456789 | 3456789   | 123456789 |
:-----------'-----------'-----------.           |           |           .-----------'-----------'-----------:
|(24)                               |           |           |           |(19)                               |
| 123456789   123456789   45789     | 35678     | 23456789  | 123589    | 123468      23456789    123456789 |
|           .-----------.-----------'-----------:           :-----------'-----------.-----------.           |
|           |(10)       |(6)                    |           |(15)                   |(15)       |           |
| 123456789 | 13456     | 245         124       | 2356789   | 679         689       | 234567    | 123456789 |
:-----------'           :-----------------------:           :-----------------------:           '-----------:
|                       |(10)                   |           |(9)                    |                       |
| 1234567     1234567   | 679         134       | 56789     | 467         235       | 23456789    123456789 |
'-----------------------'-----------------------'-----------'-----------------------'-----------------------'

Here's what JSudoku came up with from the above position:
JSudoku wrote:
Grouped XY-Chain on 3 with 1 cells 2 links (3)R3C46=(3)R23C5-(8)R1C5=(8)R1C12-(2=3)R2C2 -> common buddies of R3C46 & R2C2 <> 3

Or, in simpler (but more verbose) form:
Code:
R3C46<>3 -> R23C5=3 -> R1C5<>8 -> R1C12=8 -> R2C2<>2 -> R2C2=3

In other words, either R3C46 or R2C2 must contain a 3, so we can eliminate 3 from their mutual peers (R3C12)

Sounds good, but what I couldn't understand at first was why a 3 in R23C5 should imply that R1C5 cannot be 8.

It turned out to be due to the previous conflicting combination step (no, before you ask, I was definitely not reading the log from A - Z!):
Code:
Cage 21/4 in R6..9C5 must have at least one of {38} -> Cage 23/4 in R1..4C5 <> {38..}

Mystery solved? Well, not quite: why must cage 21/4 in R6..9C5 have a 3 or 8? Did JSudoku forget about {2469}? Unlikely. Back to the log. Had to scroll back a bit further this time:
Code:
Split cage 5/2 in R89C4 must have at least one of {24} -> Cage 21/4 in R6..9C5 <> {24..} within R78C5

followed a bit later by:
Code:
Split cage 13/2 in R89C6 must have at least one of {69} -> Cage 21/4 in R6..9C5 <> {69..} within R789C5

So, whichever digit is placed in R6C5, {2469} would force R789C5 to contain either {24} or {69}, which would conflict with either of the two aforementioned split outie cages. Hence {2469} can be eliminated as a combination for the 21/4 cage.
This leaves "only" {2379|3459|2478|2568|3468|3567} = {(3|8)..}, as required for the AIC link (3)R23C5-(8)R1C5.

In other words, the XY-Chain depends on a link that depends on a conflicting combination that, in turn, depends on two partially conflicting combinations in two split cages!

Call me a pessimist if you must, but I've a sneaking suspicion that even one or two advanced players would miss such a move at first! Smile

Nevertheless, this is absolutely fascinating stuff, and JC deserves a round of applause (or maybe a round of beer - in order to slow him down a bit and allow everyone else to catch up! Smile) for getting all this programmed in. Applause
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Glyn
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All

Sorry I am not able to participate much at the moment in the tags, as Ed knows I have quite a few problems with my mum which are getting worse so I might not be able to chip in as much. Hope to catch up soon with the ones I'm missing.

With that in mind my efforts on the V2 of Assassin 50 have not been posted apart from the T&E to get the first key placement. I've gone on to un-Tiny Type them so if anyone wants to have a crack on it please do. I have worked through the rest a couple of times but my notes are a complete mess so I will probably have to start again.

Perhaps JC could see what the new JSudoku can do on it as well, I'll leave it to you guys to decide how to proceed.

All the best,

Glyn
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CathyW
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhparker wrote:
Just to give anybody who hasn't yet battled with the log an idea of how complicated it gets, here's an example to whet your appetite (or scare you off, as the case may be! pale):

Eh? Definitely the latter for me!


Glyn - I hope things improve for you and your Mum very soon (I tried to find an emoticon showing a hug but there doesn't seem to be one - hugs anyway!).

Cathy
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Para
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

i agree on the seriously nice programming if Jsudoku can do these paths. To be hones i would miss those. I already found my chain in 51V2 hard to find, these chains seem to be a bit over the top for me. Kinda like some ALS's and Medusa colouring in Sudocue for example that i just will never be able to find.

As we are on the log again. Does JSudoku have a solving path for Assassin 50V2, because that one seriously has everyone stumped so that one might be nice.

Anyone have a problem with a log for that one?

greetings

Para
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Glyn
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your wishes Cathy, she has Alzheimers' so things can be fraught, my dad had it as well.

Para As for the 50V2 JSudoku can do it from where I've got it, but the fan on the laptop still goes ballistic. If you carry on with T&E on the two cell cages round the edge you can slowly pick them off but it's slow going. Interestingly if you pick the cages that you'd like to pair up to reduce your options they seem to always be the wrong ones, almost like Ruud had crafted it for huge trial and error depths. No wonder he said it was tough.

All the best,

Glyn
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to have a slightly easier Assassin at least once a month.

Ruud wrote:
There is a little present in this Assassin.

I assume that is the opening move, unless I missed something else.

Para wrote:
Nothing spectacular, one nice move i hoped to put to use in a walk-through for once. (Not that it was actually necessary, but sometimes it can break open puzzles, like one of my V2's)

Para's step 16b was a neat one! While he said that it wasn't actually necessary, in the sense that it didn't break open the puzzle, it was still the most powerful move for eliminating candidates from R2C1.

The solving route I used was fairly similar to Cathy's one. Here is my walkthrough.

First the obvious step

1. 45 rule on C5 1 innie R5C5 = 5

Now for the usual preliminary steps

2. R1C34 = {69/78}

3. R1C67 = {14/23}

4. R2C34 = {16/25/34}, no 7,8,9

5. R2C67 = {79}, locked for R2

6. R8C34 = {19/28/37/46}, no 5

7. R8C67 = {29/38/48/56}, no 1

8. R9C34 = {18/27/36/45}, no 9

9. R9C67 = {79}, locked for R9, clean-up: no 2 in R9C34

10. X-wing {79} in R29C67, no other 7,9 in C67, clean-up: no 2,4 in R8C67

11. 8(3) cage in N1 = 1{25/34}, 1 locked for N1, clean-up: no 6 in R2C4

12. R456C1 = {389/479/569/578}, no 1,2

13. R456C2 = {128/137/146/236/245}, no 9

14. 19(3) cage in N7 = {289/379/469/478/568}, no 1
14a. Max R9C12 = 14 -> min R8C2 = 5

15. 10(3) cage in N9 = {127/136/145/235}, no 8,9

16. R1234C5 = {2789/3689/4679} = 9{278/368/467}, no 1, 9 locked for C5

17. 1 in C5 locked in R6789C5 = 1{238/247/346}

18. 45 rule on N1 2 innies R12C3 = 11 = [65/74/83/92], no 6 in R2C3, clean-up: no 1 in R2C4

19. 45 rule on N3 2 innies R12C7 = 10 = [19/37], no 2,4 in R1C7, clean-up: no 1,3 in R1C6

20. 8(3) cage in N1, R1C12 cannot be {12/13} (which clash with R1C67) -> no 4,5 in R2C2
20a. Cannot be {34}1 (which clashes with R1C67); {25}1 is still valid

21. 45 rule on N7 2 innies R89C3 = 7 = {16}/[25]/{34}, no 7,8,9 in R8C3, no 8 in R9C3, clean-up: no 1,2,3 in R8C4, no 1 in R9C4
[I missed the obvious 2 outies R89C4 = 12, no 6]

22. 45 rule on N9 2 innies R89C7 = 15 = [69/87], no 3,5 in R8C7, clean-up: no 6,8 in R8C6

23. 8(3) cage in N1 = 1{25/34}, R2C3 = {2345} -> 26(4) cage in N1 contains one of 2,3,4,5 = {2789/3689/4679/5678} (cannot be {4589})

24. 45 rule on C1234 2 innies R5C34 = 3 = {12}, locked for R5
24a. R5C67 = 11 = {38} (only remaining combination), locked for R5

25. 45 rule on R1234 4 innies R4C1289 = 10 = {1234}, locked for R4

26. 45 rule on R6789 4 innies R6C1289 = 26 = {2789/3689/4589/4679/5678}, no 1

27. 45 rule on C12 2 innies R37C3 = 13 = {49/58/67}

28. 45 rule on C89 2 innies R37C7 = 6 = {15/24}

29. R4C1 = {34}, R456C1 (step 12) = {389/479} -> R5C1 = {79}, R6C1 = {789}, 9 locked for C1 and N4
29a. 9 in R4 locked in R4C45, locked for N4

30. 45 rule on N4 3 innies R456C3 = 14 with R5C3 = {12}, valid combinations {158/167/257} (cannot be {248} which clashes with R456C1), no 1,2,3,4 in R6C3

31. 14(3) cage in N245 = {158/356} (only remaining combinations) -> R3C6 = {13}, R4C7 = 5, clean-up: no 1 in R37C7

32. Naked pair {24} in R37C7, locked for C7

33. Killer pair 3/8 in R34C6 and R5C6, locked for C6 -> R8C67 = [56], clean-up: no 4 in R8C34, no 4 in R9C3
33a. 8 in C6 locked in R45C6, locked for N5

34. 4 in N5 locked in R6C456, locked for R6

35. 45 rule on N6 2 remaining 2 innies R56C7 = 9 = [81], R5C6 = 3, R1C67 = [23], R3C6 = 1, R4C6 = 8 (cage sum), clean-up: no 5 in R2C3, no 6 in R1C3 (step 18), no 9 in R1C4, R2C7 = 7 (step 19), R2C6 = 9, R9C67 = [79], clean-up: no 3 in R8C3
35a. R4C5 = 9 (hidden single in C5)

36. R12 = {14/15}, 1 locked for R1 and N1

37. Killer pair 2/3 in R2C2 and R2C34, locked for R2
37a. 2 in R2 locked in R2C23, locked for N1

38. Min R45C2 = 5 -> max R6C2 = 6
38a. R456C2 = {146/236/245} (cannot be {137} which clashes with R456C1), no 7
38b. 1 in R4C2 -> no 4 in R4C2

39. 8 in N9 locked in 20(4) cage = {1289/1478/2378/3458}
39a. R7C7 = {24} -> no 2,4 elsewhere in 20(4) cage

40. 45 rule on R123 1 outie R4C5 - 4 = 1 innie R3C4 -> R3C4 = 5, clean-up: no 2 in R3C3
[This could have been done after step 35a, when it would have simplified some of the steps after that one. Alternatively there was R4C34 = {67} -> R3C4 = 5.]

41. R5C4 = 1 (hidden single in N5), R5C3 = 2

42. R4C2 = 1 (hidden single in N4), R56C2 (step 38a) = [46], R4C1 = 3, R56C1 (step 12) = [98], R4C3 = 7, R4C4 = 6, R6C3 = 5, R67C6 = [46], R1C12 = [15], R2C2 = 2 (cage sum), clean-up: no 3 in R9C3, no 4 in R9C4, no 9 in R1C3, no 8 in R1C4 -> R1C34 = [87]

and the rest is naked singles, naked pairs and cage sums


Last edited by Andrew on Thu May 31, 2007 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mhparker
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi folks,

Here's the full walkthrough for the V2, based on our tag solution. I incorporated JC's hidden triple in R1, as well as making some minor alterations in the opening sequence.

I also added a couple of missed killer triples (steps 29 and 31c) that changed the course of the game a bit, making it less dependent on conflicting combinations.

Despite several comments to the contrary, the puzzle was not that difficult - certainly not "terrifying", and easily within range of ordinary mortals. Nevertheless, many thanks, Ruud, for providing this V2, thus giving us all a chance to get a small insight into the new JSudoku. Keep those V2's coming!

Talking of JSudoku (my favorite subject at the moment! Smile), it made heavy going of this puzzle, using no less than 12 XY-chains - despite JC's comment on the Solving Techniques forum that they are
Jean-Christophe wrote:
not as useful as I thought

Wink. Not only that, it also hammered those conflicting combinations (especially in columns 4 - 6) time and time again, driving me almost into a state of delirium trying to follow it! Still, I'm looking forward to getting my paws on it as soon as it's out the door. Smile

Now to the walkthrough, which is not in tiny text due to the next Assassin being just a few hours away and the fact that it was a tag solution anyway.

Enjoy!


Assassin 52V2 Walkthrough

1. Innie C5: R5C5 = 1

2. 7/2 at R1C3: no 7,8,9

3. 7/2 at R1C6: no 7,8,9

4. 8/3 at R1C8 = {1(25|34)} (no 6,7,8,9)
4a. 1 locked in 8/3 at R1C8 -> not elsewhere in N3
4b. Cleanup: no 6 in R1C6

5. Hidden triple on {789} in R1 at R1C125 -> R1C125 = {789}
5a. -> R1C125 forms split 24/3 cage in R1 -> R2C8 = 1 (outie, R1)

6. 18/3 at R1C1 = {(29|38)7}
6a. 7 locked in R1C12 -> not elsewhere in R1 and N1
6b. {23} only in R2C2 -> R2C2 = {23}
6c. Cleanup: no 3 in R2C4

7. 10/2 at R2C34 = {28|37|46}: no 5,9

8. 13/2 at R2C6 = {49|58|67}: no 2,3

9. 11/3 at R3C6 = {128|137|146|236|245}: no 9

10. 21/3 at R4C2 = {489|579|678}: no 1,2,3

11. 20/3 at R4C8 = {389|479|569|578}: no 2

12. 10/3 at R8C2 = {127|136|145|235}: no 8,9

13. 6/2 at R8C34 = {15|24}: no 3,6,7,8,9

14. 15/2 at R8C6 = {69|78}: no 1,2,3,4,5

15. 10/2 at R9C3 = {19|28|37|46}: no 5

16. 9/2 at R9C6 = {18|27|36|45}: no 9

17. Outies N1: R12C4 = 8/2 = [17]|{26} = {(1|2)..},{(2|7)..}
({35} blocked because both 3 and 5 unavailable in R2C4)
17a. -> R1C4 = {126} (no 3,4,5), R2C4 = {267} (no 4,8)
17b. Cleanup: R1C3 = {1256} (no 2,3,4), R2C3 = {348} (no 2,6)

18. Outies N3: R12C6 = 9/2 = [18|27|36]|{45}: no 6 in R1C6, no 9 in R2C6
18a. Cleanup: no 4 in R2C7

19. Outies N7: R89C4 = 5/2 = {14}|[23] = {(1|2)..}
19a. -> R8C4 = {124} (no 5), R9C4 = {134} (no 2,6,7,8,9)
19b. Cleanup: R8C3 = {245} (no 1), R9C3 = {679} (no 1,2,3,4,8)
19c. 8 locked in 24/4 at R7C1 = {8..} (no eliminations yet)

20. Outies N9: R89C6 = 13/2 = {67}|[85|94]
20a. -> R9C6 = {4567} (no 1,2,3,8)
20b. Cleanup: R9C7 = {2345} (no 1,6,7,8)

21. Outies C12: R37C3 = 13/2 = {49|58}|[67] (no 1,2,3; no 6 in R7C3)

22. Outies C89: R37C7 = 10/2 = {28|37|46}|[91] (no 5; no 9 in R7C7)

23. Innies C1234: R5C34 = 15/2 = {69|78} (no 2,3,4,5)

24. Innies C6789: R5C67 = 7/2 = {25|34} (no 6,7,8,9)

25. Innies N4: R456C3 = 12/3
25a. min. R5C3 = 6 -> max. R46C3 = 6 -> R46C3 = {(1|2)..}

26. R12C4 and R89C4 form killer pair on {12} in C4 -> not elsewhere in C4

27. {129} now unavailable for 12/3 at R6C3 ({12} only in R6C3)
27a. 12/3 at R6C3 = {138|147|237|156|246|345} (no 9)

28. 9 in C4 now locked in 17/3 at R3C4 = {(17|26|35)9} (no 4,8)
28a. CPE: R5C4 sees all 9's in 17/3 at R3C4 -> no 9 in R5C4
28b. Cleanup: no 6 in R5C3

29. 21/3 at R4C2 must contain exactly 2 of {789} (step 10)
29a. -> R5C3 and 21/4 at R4C2 forms killer triple on {789} in N4
29b. -> no 7,8,9 elsewhere in N4

30. Similarly, R1C2 and 21/4 at R4C2 forms killer triple on {789} in C2
30a. -> no 7,8,9 elsewhere in C2

31. 12/3 at R4C1 = {156|246|345}
31a. -> 12/3 at R4C1 must contain exactly one of {123}
31b. {123} otherwise only available in R46C3
31c. -> 12/3 at R4C1 and R46C3 form hidden killer triple on {123} in N4
31d. -> R4C3 = {123} (no 5), R6C3 = {123} (no 4,5)
31e. Cleanup: no 3 in R34C4 ({359} only combo with 3 (step 28), and {59} now only in R34C4)

32. R12C4 must contain one of {27} (step 17)
32a. -> R12C6 (outies N3, step 18) cannot contain both of {27}
32b. -> no 2 in R1C6; no 7 in R2C6
32c. Cleanup: no 5 in R1C7; no 6 in R2C7

33. Innies - outies, R9: R9C5 (1 innie) = R8C28 (2 outies) + 1
33a. max. R9C5 = 9 -> max. R8C28 = 8 -> no 8,9 in R8C8
33b. min. R8C28 = 3 -> min. R9C5 = 4 -> no 2,3 in R9C5

34. Implication chain eliminates 8 in R2C3
34a. R2C3=8 -> R2C4=2 -> R2C2=3 -> R1C12={78} -> R2C3<>8 (contradiction)
34b. Conclusion: no 8 in R2C3
34c. Cleanup: no 2 in R2C4, no 6 in R1C4 (step 17), no 1 in R1C3

35. 1 in R1 locked in N2, not elsewhere in N2 (R3C6)
35a. min. R34C6 = 5 -> max. R4C7 = 6 (no 7,8)

36. 1 in C3 now locked in N4, not elsewhere in N4
36a. 12/3 at R4C1 = {(26|35)4}, 4 locked for C1 and N4

37. 21/3 at R4C2 = {(59|68)7}, 7 locked for C2 and N4
37a. Cleanup: no 8 in R5C4 (step 23)

38. Hidden single (HS) at R1C1 = 7

39. Naked pair (NP) on {67} in C4 at R25C4 -> no 6,7 elsewhere in C4

40. NP on {59} in C4 at R34C4 -> no 5,9 elsewhere in C4
40a. 17/3 at R3C4 = {359} (step 28)
40b. -> R4C3 = 3

This sets off an avalanche of hidden and naked singles that makes the rest of the puzzle a breeze.
_________________
Cheers,
Mike
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