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Clueless Explosion #42
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Nouggie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Clueless Explosion #42 Reply with quote

Hi Ruud,

Explosion #42 did not appear.
Thanks.
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Nouggie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Explosion #42 Reply with quote

Ruud,

I hope all is well.
If you can post an Explosion this week, I recommend a short countdown to the start of the puzzle...two hours should be fair to all.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its hardly fair to all to have a countdown ...

Some of us cant do these huge puzzles in under 8 minutes.

If I just keep checking perhaps I can get the Jump on that Nouggie...
or even get my name on the list.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please save it until tomorrow. I am still stuck in the Catch 22 puzzle and it would be nice to finish that first, instead of interrupting for the weekly explosion.

And Poor Pete is probably right. There should be no countdown, so his program gets a chance to beat Nasty Nouggie’s for once.

Twisted Evil

Brian.
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Ruud
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No countdown. It's there already.

I just recovered from the shell shock caused by Glyn's amazing fast solution to Catch 22. Just in time to do some serious work on Assassin 48.

T minus 3 hours and counting...

Ruud
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Nouggie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok.

That's funny, Pete.
I tip my hat to you as a superior sudokuist....sincerely.
I am still learning and have not mastered the more sophisticated techniques.

But as for Brian, it must still be winter in Stockholm!
"Nasty Nouggie"!!??!! Ouch, you're shameless.

Pete can speak for himslf, but as for me, I only use the software Ruud makes available to all.
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lynn893
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Nouggie"]

Pete can speak for himslf, but as for me, I only use the software Ruud makes available to all.[/quote]

Sorry, Nouggie, I wouldn't normally comment on this, but, Really?
For some reason I don't believe you. Shocked Confused Wink

Unless you've done some amazing modifications to Ruud's Helper, I don't see how the 'Mar 22, Very Hard' Explosion could possibly be done in 5 minutes, not to mention the April 5 & 19 Explosions in 4 minutes.

So, fess up.... What mods have you done? or what programs do you use?
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Glyn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone

If you reckon on 19 givens per grid there are about 550 cells to complete. So 4 minutes works out at 2.3 cells per second.

In Clueless Helper only naked singles and hidden singles can be entered in single click mode, so even then it would be humanly impossible to achieve that speed.

At the early stage of a Clueless Explosion I always look in the Clueless grid for candidates locked in rows or columns for each nonet. If you flip to the corresponding grid for that nonet every time you find one it saves a little bit of searching later on for the centre dot eliminations. This takes quite a while.

Bearing in mind that there are loads of pairs and triples (naked and hidden) cropping up and the extraneous candidates have to be eliminated with the space bar, the number of key strokes must be much higher anyway.

I have tried a copy of Petes program and I guess you could get Clueless solved in well under 10 minutes, provided it didn't have too many hiddens and centre dot interactions.

I use Helper and paste to another program such as Sudocue if a grid is being stubborn, it takes about an hour on average. Remember you can't undo with Helper.

We all do the puzzles for different reasons, and whether your brain power is being applied directly to the problem or to the solving methods we can all thank Ruud for providing the stimulus. And he does give us a day to submit, so 23hrs 59mins score the same as 4mins. In fact for the Explosions, being potentially harder for a pen and paper solver, a week is given the same point, so the system is quite fair to all.

All the best

Glyn
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Nouggie
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: To Lynn & Glyn Reply with quote

LYNN. I stand by my statement. No mods, no non-Ruud program, no magic.

Given the relative difficulty of the various puzzles (not necessarily the given rating), some of Pete's times are more impressive. By far, however, the most spectacular time posted belongs to Richard Broughton on Clueless Special #59. If he is using software that he developed, he did a great job.

GLYN. I agree, we do puzzles for varying reasons and purpose, and we owe Ruud a great deal for providing such stimulation. I usually work each puzzle several times, first for time and subsequently for joy.

Your opening argument, however, that a solver needs to complete approximately 550 cells is not correct. The solution to each puzzle, whether it be samurai, center-dot, or special, is 81 cells. If it is time that is important, the goal is to complete as little of the supporting puzzles as possible while arriving at a completed solution puzzle.

My best to you both,
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Pete
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glyn,

you CAN undo with clueless helper, try the Control Z ( ^Z ).

with the multi grid puzzles in my program the best you can do is revert an individual grid. Then the swap will reload candidates from the other grids.



Nouggie,

I have had occasions where I found the center answer before all 9 of the clue grids... But im way too paranoid to post it untill I get all 10.
Some of those wrong eliminations I make show up elswhere...
theres a difference between an xwing and an empty rectangle.




All you other opinionated and/or silent types:

My program does a wash, kinda like double clicking all the naked singles.

All the easy eliminations .. twins, hidden singles(pins), and usually the intersections.

I can usually get a puzzle 5-6 times as fast with mine than with clueless helper. Ten minutes in mine is about an hour in clueless helper.

Nouggie however is 4x as fast as that ....
I admit to clock watching and trying to get the puzzles within a second or two of their posting.... but my fastest times are 3x as long as Nouggie's

I think someone is fibbing.

my program is a lot less graphic oriented than ruuds.
All input must come from a text file.

Everyone is welcome to a copy of my program. my email is on my profile.
just ask.
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lynn893
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: To Lynn & Glyn Reply with quote

[quote="Nouggie"]LYNN. I stand by my statement. No mods, no non-Ruud program, no magic.


By far, however, the most spectacular time posted belongs to Richard Broughton on Clueless Special #59.
My best to you both,[/quote]

Actually, Richard's time of 7 minutes is only one of the best times for the Clueless Special. #43 was also done in 7 minutes by Pete Ty. You clocked in at 8 minutes for #56, and 9 minutes for both #58 & #57.

Then there are the Explosions. The best time out there stands at 4 minutes for #41 and #39. Can you guess who holds that record? Yep, Nouggie does. Razz

Also 4 minutes for #22 of the samurai contest. Wink



~~~~~~~
Pete - thanks for the 'undo' feature in the helper. I always end up doing a 'save as' because I wasn't aware of ^Z.
Plus, I have also finished the center before the outer grids, and I also never submitt until the entire puzzle is completed. Submitting before I've completed it would just feel like cheating myself, if not everyone else who plays these competitions.


~~~~~~~~~~
Anyone/Everyone/Whoever Laughing
Have a great day, and I look forward to participating in the contest in 'less than 9 hours'.

See you all there! Very Happy
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Pete
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this week I set my all time high clueless explosion...
Watched the clock, got the puzzle in seconds loaded it into my program swapped and solved it... this week my program did well...
AND I used Nouggie's trick of only completeing the center puzzle.

This week 2 people beat me.

Glyn is right, the assesment of the time involved,is on the order of her assesment, probably on the close order.

Nouggie is bearing false witness.. or whatever the legal term is. As a Lawyer this is his profession. He must convince everyone that his side is the right side, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I did a timed run of the OhSoEasy Example clueless after a few practice runs to know the moves on the grids reqired... I managed to do it in my program(Puzzle already loaded) In a bit less than 2 minutes.
Any puzzle that takes more than one pass, or a triple, or xwing would stall me and my program for at least a minute more.

I then managed it in clueless helper in 12 minutes. it takes a LOT of spaces and double clicks, not to mention a bunch of watch button clicks.

Nouggie will now give his summation to give 12 or more of us some reasonable doubt, perhaps legally it only requires 1 of 12.
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Shoebear
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Quote from nouggie above:
Nouggie wrote:
LYNN. I stand by my statement. No mods, no non-Ruud program, no magic.


Nouggie, I still find that hard to believe.

Your time for #44 was less than 5 minutes.
With 1 exception your time in the last 6 weeks lay between 4 and 7 minutes.

No way that can be done just with Ruud's program (see Pete's contribution directly above this one).


What really gets me though is "Tomas Kollen"'s time.

One minute for #44. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

In my opinion there's no way anyone can do that with legitimate means. He's using a program to do them automatically. And then, IMHO, he's got no right to be on any list. This is a puzzle and competition for people wirth brains and eyes, not for computer programs!! Evil or Very Mad
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lynn893
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Shoebear"]Hi all,


What really gets me though is "Tomas Kollen"'s time.

[color=darkred][size=18]One[/size][/color] minute for #44. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

In my opinion there's no way anyone can do that with legitimate means. He's using a program to do them automatically. And then, IMHO, he's got no right to be on any list. This is a puzzle and competition for people wirth brains and eyes, not for computer programs!! Evil or Very Mad[/quote]


IMHO (in my honest opinion), I completely agree. This is supposed to be a competion. Where is the spirit of adventure if all you have to do is load the program and then click on the 'submit' button. And how is that fair to everyone here on this site? Question
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Marlie
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Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lynn893 wrote:
Shoebear wrote:
Hi all,


What really gets me though is "Tomas Kollen"'s time.

One minute for #44. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

In my opinion there's no way anyone can do that with legitimate means. He's using a program to do them automatically. And then, IMHO, he's got no right to be on any list. This is a puzzle and competition for people wirth brains and eyes, not for computer programs!! Evil or Very Mad



IMHO (in my honest opinion), I completely agree. This is supposed to be a competion. Where is the spirit of adventure if all you have to do is load the program and then click on the 'submit' button. And how is that fair to everyone here on this site? Question


Well Lynn.
Several months ago i already posted the same. I don't know why someone has the currage to post a solution whitch he did not make by his own.
This people are making there own programs and use them here. I think they can't solve a simpel 9x9 sudoku with there own brains and i agree with you:
They don't have any right to appear on this lists.
I hope Ruud can see that on this way my pleasure in solving the puzzles is almost gone and i think you are feeling the same.
There are some people already who don't play anymore because of this.
Greetz Marlie
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